Curse

StormX · Jul 22, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

wtf, OP. No.

i am in favour of buffing the dervish instead of weakening other scythe users.

I'd like to see some viable purpose for the primary attribute. Turn mysticsm into an energy management attribute. Move some attack buff skills into the mysticsm line/and or change the functionality of some mysticsm skills to make them more compatible with a melee attacker.

eg. zealous renewal: for 30 seconds you gain 1 energy everytime you hit with a scythe attack. (or some shit like that..basically a miniature zealous vow) balthazar's rage: for 20 seconds you steal 10 hp everytime you hit with an attack. bla bla bla etc

pious fury is rubbish and so is eremites zeal. buff please.

Morphy · Jul 22, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Zzzzzz, won't fix A/D but other than that, most /D gimmicks take the plunge. Ok change, but there's probably a better option out there.

reaper with no name · Jul 22, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I don't know if any of you know this, but this thread is long past it's expiration date. All the relevant discussion has already been had, the suggestion died, and there's really no point in continuing. Can we have a mod close this or something?

Morphy · Jul 22, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Someone made a similar suggestion, which meant this thread needed to be re-opened I guess.

reaper with no name · Jul 22, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

In that case, it might be better to dig up the suggestion I made after this one. The reason this thread died was because I decided to make a slightly different one in response to ideas from this one.

Then again, the political climate surrounding the dervish has changed (many of the ideas people bring forward today are things that I and others thought of long ago), so who knows?

Bristlebane · Jul 22, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Mods closed my thread and linked to this one, that's why this one is given new life. If you don't like it, you can take it up with the mods.

BadBot · Aug 03, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Imo themain problem is that the Derv lacks its role on the battlefield.
The question what does the derv do? What is unique about the derv to take him in a party instead of a war or a sin???

that is the question my friends...

Sin does insane dps /tank as shadow form/
War has great armor/ kd/ survivability
Paras are party oriented

Derv?
where is his place?
Do more DPS than a Sin?
Have better survivability than a War?
Be more party oriented than a Para?

so derv would take their place?

NO
the problem is that they have to invent another significant category at wich the derv is the best

Mia Clemons · Aug 04, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBot

Imo themain problem is that the Derv lacks its role on the battlefield.
The question what does the derv do? What is unique about the derv to take him in a party instead of a war or a sin???

that is the question my friends...

Sin does insane dps /tank as shadow form/
War has great armor/ kd/ survivability
Paras are party oriented

Derv?
where is his place?
Do more DPS than a Sin?
Have better survivability than a War?
Be more party oriented than a Para?

so derv would take their place?

NO
the problem is that they have to invent another significant category at wich the derv is the best

Agreed, i feel the derv is underpowered in terms of party slots. Warriors survive better, Sins deal way more damage, and sorry but Paragons suck, id rather take a Derv over a Paragon (unless its Imbagon)

In any case, sorry for being off topic.
Can we please close this thread, like the guy above already said, all relevant discussion has already been had, close this.....

jazilla · Aug 04, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

You know what I think, make the Scythe hit targets that are adjacent to the player, NOT adjacent to the target. Positioning would be so much more key and would give the Dervish more flexibility. I too would like to see number of targets increased due to Mysticism.

Tenebrae · Aug 04, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBot

NO
the problem is that they have to invent another significant category at wich the derv is the best

PBaoe and conditions. Not effective enough ? welcome to the club , interrupters and condt spreading rangers say hi.

They should boost some ench effects on them and boost mysticism so they gain energy and hp everytime they gain/lose an ench/hex/condt .

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2010, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBot

Imo themain problem is that the Derv lacks its role on the battlefield.
The question what does the derv do? What is unique about the derv to take him in a party instead of a war or a sin???

that is the question my friends...

Sin does insane dps /tank as shadow form/
War has great armor/ kd/ survivability
Paras are party oriented

Derv?
where is his place?
Do more DPS than a Sin?
Have better survivability than a War?
Be more party oriented than a Para?

so derv would take their place?

NO
the problem is that they have to invent another significant category at wich the derv is the best

The role the dervish is supposed to have is the one role you failed to mention: general melee AoE. That role is currently jointly occupied by warriors and sins (with sins having the most damage, and warriors sacrificing a little of it for SY). Neither of them need it, as you illustrated.

Spiritz · Aug 11, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Changing scythe is bad idea - long time ago anet decided to change mystic regen for numerous reasons which in turn killed a wide range of /d builds - 55 monks lost the /d for quite a while.Now if you mess with scythe and make it only viable for a derv then again lots of diff builds who use a scythe and non derv primary will die out and cause huge amount of complaints.
What next - making sure each weapon can only be used by a primary proffession of its type ? Make all skills primary profession only ?
Gw has a great thing called diversity - our chrs can diverse in what builds and weapons they use making the game more enjoyable - d/a runners .. would you like them nerfed as all sin skills are sin only ?.
Ive never yet seen a major outpost without an dervs - ive not yet seen many team builds that dont include dervs and im sure as hell pvxwiki and other sites with builds have an empty derv build area.Dervs seem to be played regardless of how often their skills are buffed or nerfed.
Thats my rant over and when gw comes back online i`ll be joining my guildies on my a/d crit scythe sin and fighting alongside them with their dervs ( they dont complain im a a/d nor i use derv skills and a scythe ).

reaper with no name · Aug 11, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Don't see team builds that don't include dervs?

I've never seen a single one that does.

Say what you will about this particular idea (I abandoned it a long time ago), but there is no reason to ever use a dervish in PvE. There is always some other class that can do it better.

Also, making primary dervs better than secondary dervs does not harm build diversity. It actually increases it, by giving an entire profession a use. Making other professions less effective with the scythe does not harm their diversity any more than they currently harm the dervish's. And unlike them, the dervish is actually supposed to be swinging the scythe around.

Also, you are failing to comprehend how the secondary profession system is supposed to work. The secondary profession is supposed to complement the primary profession, not the reverse.

saint666 · Aug 12, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Bad idea. How is gimping other classes making dervs better, all it does is making everybody else worse. How bout leaving the scythe as it is, but making the crappy dervish skills usable as a start. Most of the dervish enchantments are useless, for a supposed enchantment driven class, lets start there. Then maybe dervishes can actually have decent builds instead of the sub par builds they have now.

You fail to comprehend what the dervish's problem is. It's not the other classes that are better at being a dervish than a dervish, is that the dervish is bad at being a dervish. There are no penalties for anyone using daggers and assassin skills but assassins remain the best at it, anyone can pick up a axe and use warrior skills, but warriors are still the best at it, that's because their primary actually complements their skills. The dervish has terrible synergy between it's primary and skills. It has no synergy with attack spamming which is what people try to turn the dervish into, terribly bland. The enchantments(ie. pbaoe, your "melee aoe") are terribly underpowered for anyone to want to use them, even if anyone wanted to use them mysticism can't even generate enough energy to sustain them. Is it because of mesmers that eles suck at nuking? no eles just bad.

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Do you have any idea how large the gap is between the dervish and other professions? It's big. Too big for some marginal buffs to fix.

Do you have any idea how much buffing it would take for anything else in the dervish's arsenal to compete with attack skill spam? Huge, gargantuan buffs.

To make the dervish better than the alternatives with only buffs would add to the power creep in a way that NF would envy. We're talking about the biggest buffs in the game's history, with no guarantees that they wouldn't have unintended balance consequences elsewhere. Nerfing doesn't have that drawback. More importantly, it's unlikely Anet would go for something like that.

There is no difference in terms of class balance between nerfing the overpowered and buffing the underpowered. So, yes, it's equally true that Elementalists make bad nukers because other classes nuke better as it is that Elementalists don't nuke well. What's "good" or "bad" is not determined in a vacuum; it is determined by comparison to the alternatives. We say something is good when it is better, and bad when it is worse.

Another huge issue is the question of how one would go about buffing mysticism in a way that would make dervishes better than it's competition.

Increase the energy gain? Even SR can't fuel attack skill spam. Any scythe build worth using requires around 3 energy per second. Even if Mysticism could provide this under it's current functionality, the fact that it would require monks to build around you and focus on you would prevent the dervish from ever being the "best" scythe user.

Have Mysticism increase damage with the scythe? I suggested that one once. The idea died. But even if it hadn't, it wouldn't have allowed the dervish to beat out the scythe sin.

Have Mysticism increase crit rates? Without the crit-enhancing skills in Critical Strikes, it wouldn't help.

Add AP? Without better IAS, it wouldn't help. Never mind that it would make Strength redundant. And even if you threw in better IAS, sins would still be better.

Decrease recharge times? That might make dervishes better than warriors, but sins would remain at the top.

But let's say you didn't buff Mysticism as an attribute. What if you buffed it's skills? The avatars offer only three things: offense (not enough), defense (paradoxical on a frontline melee character), or utility (which is not worthwhile). The energy management skills are useless (and even if they were as powerful as zealous vow, the dervish would still be using the same number of skill slots, and would still be inferior as a result). Heart of Fury is the only decent IAS dervishes have, and even if it was buffed to full maintainability (which, really, it should have always been, seeing as how it forces you to waste half your attribute points on mysticism), the dervish would still not be able to beat the scythe sin.

What if you buff Earth and Wind Prayers? The dervish has no need of defense, IMS, etc. Making enchantments worthwhile would require a ridiculous amount of buffing that is about as likely as us getting 3 more Gods' realms. Vow of Strength is inferior to zealous vow even if the enemy never has a condition. And if any of this did become worthwhile, we would just see more secondary abuse.

saint666 · Aug 12, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

oh i guess the buffs to rits and mesmers were minor and insignificant. FYI eles were bad nukers since HM came out, not because of mesmers, but until recently ppl had no other choice but eles. It's like saying if warriors sucked, assassin's would great when factions just came out? And notice it did not require any other classes to get gimped for assassins to be buffed. And why don't you ask even though sins can use axes why are warriors still better at it? That's because their primary attribute and skills actually has synergy with their attacks. As of now any class with enough energy management is better or good as a dervish, is it because they are too op with a scythe? No it's because how hard is it to be beat some1 with a primary attribute and skills that doesn't even function properly. It's not the weapon it the skills behind it. The skill set under Mysticism is pathetic, yeh it gives energy, not even enough, dps? lol. If you want dps you gotta spec into scythe mastery, but the dps is unimpressive cause the other half of dervish dps for the supposed "enchantment fueled class" are spread all over wind and earth prayers, not that they are impressive anyways under their current form. Offensive enchantments need to be moved in to mysticism so you can have dps and energy at the same time not one or the other. Earth prayers should focus on protection and healing for a tanking tree, like shadow arts with more tanking and less utility. Wind prayers should be a utility tree, kiting, snaring, debuffing.

you've probably seen this, feel free to play with any of the numbers till you feel that it's sufficiently op or balanced.

Mysticism - For ranks in Mysticism gain energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends, you gain 2 energy at ranks 4 and above, 4 energy at ranks 7 and above, 6 energy at 10 ranks above, and 8 energy at ranks 13 and above. In PvE, each rank of Mysticism decreases the recharge time for your Dervish enchantments by 4% (maximum 50%).

Asuran Scan

Wounding Strike
Scythe Mastery
Elite Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
4s recharge

If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchant was removed this way you do +5...20 damage and target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

Pious Assault
scythe mastery
Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
12s recharge

You deal +5...10 damage. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchantment was removed this way you do +5...10 damage, gain 3 energy and Pious Assault recharges in 4 seconds.

Heart of Holy Flame
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does +5...20 more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 10...60 holy damage.

Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are weakened for 5...10 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does 90...100% more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 50...70 holy damage.

Heart of Fury
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
10e cost
1/4 cast
40s recharge

All adjacent foes take 10...40 holy damage. For 10...20 seconds, you attack 33% faster. When this enchantment ends, all adjacent foes 10...40 holy damage.

Conviction

Save Yourselves

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

oh i guess the buffs to rits and mesmers were minor and insignificant. FYI eles were bad nukers since HM came out, not because of mesmers, but until recently ppl had no other choice but eles. It's like saying if warriors sucked, assassin's would great when factions just came out? And notice it did not require any other classes to get gimped for assassins to be buffed. And why don't you ask even though sins can use axes why are warriors still better at it? That's because their primary attribute and skills actually has synergy with their attacks. As of now any class with enough energy management is better or good as a dervish, is it because they are too op with a scythe? No it's because how hard is it to be beat some1 with a primary attribute and skills that doesn't even function properly. It's not the weapon it the skills behind it. The skill set under Mysticism is pathetic, yeh it gives energy, not even enough, dps? lol. If you want dps you gotta spec into scythe mastery, but the dps is unimpressive cause the other half of dervish dps for the supposed "enchantment fueled class" are spread all over wind and earth prayers, not that they are impressive anyways under their current form. Offensive enchantments need to be moved in to mysticism so you can have dps and energy at the same time not one or the other. Earth prayers should focus on protection and healing for a tanking tree, you know like shadow arts. Wind prayers should be a utility tree, kiting, snaring, debuffing.

you've probably seen this, feel free to play with any of the numbers till you feel that it's sufficiently op or balanced.

Mysticism - For ranks in Mysticism gain energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends, you gain 2 energy at ranks 4 and above, 4 energy at ranks 7 and above, 6 energy at 10 ranks above, and 8 energy at ranks 13 and above. In PvE, each rank of Mysticism decreases the recharge time for your Dervish enchantments by 4% (maximum 50%).

Asuran Scan

Wounding Strike
Scythe Mastery
Elite Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
4s recharge

If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchant was removed this way you do +5...20 damage and target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

Pious Assault
scythe mastery
Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
12s recharge

You deal +5...10 damage. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchantment was removed this way you do +5...10 damage, gain 3 energy and Pious Assault recharges in 4 seconds.

Heart of Holy Flame
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does +5...20 more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 10...60 holy damage.

Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are weakened for 5...10 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does 90...100% more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 50...70 holy damage.

Heart of Fury
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
10e cost
1/4 cast
40s recharge

All adjacent foes take 10...40 holy damage. For 10...20 seconds, you attack 33% faster. When this enchantment ends, all adjacent foes 10...40 holy damage.

Conviction

Save Yourselves

I've commented on these ideas in the other thread.

Yes, assassins would have been great when factions came out if warriors had sucked by comparison.

For the other things you said, I refer you to my previous post. Adding synergy to the dervish with the scythe won't do diddly, unless you add so much that you increase the power creep to ridiculous levels (like +5 damage with the scythe per rank of mysticism or something like that). That's how big the difference is between dervishes and assassins.

saint666 · Aug 12, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I've commented on these ideas in the other thread.

Yes, assassins would have been great when factions came out if warriors had sucked.

For the other things you said, I refer you to my previous post. Adding synergy to the dervish with the scythe won't do diddly, unless you add so much that you increase the power creep to ridiculous levels (like +5 damage with the scythe per rank of mysticism or something like that). That's how big the difference is between dervishes and assassins.

Really if warrior suck it would of stopped assassins from blowing up every second, wow how come I didn't think about that. Have you even played factions when it came out? Gimping scythes will not make dervishes any better, the preferred physway melee is WoTA not crit scythe. If you make Scythes stronger incomparison for dervishes by gimping other classes, you're not actually making dervishes stronger, you're just making them comparable to other classes that were gimped. And guess what WoTA will still smoke you. And synergy does not mean adding +5 damage per rank, it means making the skills and primary actually work off of each other. There will be power creep with anything if it's not balanced properly, you remember SoS?

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

There was nothing wrong with assassins at Factions' release. The problem was that bad players were using them. As proof, consider the fact that Dervishes are just as squishy as assassins, yet they have no such reputation.

If every other scythe user was nerfed, Dervishes would become the preferred general melee AoE class overnight.

Scythes are bad for physicalways no matter what class uses them, because when buffs come into the picture, speed becomes more important than power. And scythes are slow.

saint666 · Aug 12, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

There was nothing wrong with assassins at Factions' release. The problem was that bad players were using them. As proof, consider the fact that Dervishes are just as squishy as assassins, yet they have no such reputation.

Now you're just trolling, let see at release assassins had no maintainable ias, no armor buff, no heals, most of it's attack skills had at least 8 second recharge, so all it took for assassins to be good as warriors was a little nerf to daggers so no one else can double strike. And what proof, you mean vital boon, Signet of Pious Light, conviction, Watchful Intervention, Faithful Intervention vs Shadow Refuge? There's no problems with dervishes ever, it's only bad players playing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If every other scythe user was nerfed, Dervishes would become the preferred general melee AoE class overnight.

They still wouldn't be preferred anything. Fact, dagger, axe, sword and hammer mastery are very powerful. Nerfing scythes for other classes would only grief other players, it does nothing to actually fix the dervish itself. Dervishes will still be doing crappy damage, while sins and wars are pumping out loads of damage with their inherent CS and STR attributes and it's powerful skills. Even if dervs were the best with scythes they're still weak. It not scythes that make Wars, Sins strong, it's their primary attribute and skills makes every weapon they pick up strong. If you attach AoHM to mysticism and make scythes do 1 damage with lower than lvl 5 mysticism, then you will see how pwnage dervishes are with scythes. Scythes are fine dervish skills and mysticism fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Scythes are bad for physicalways no matter what class uses them, because when buffs come into the picture, speed becomes more important than power. And scythes are slow.

daggers are the same foe everyone so anyone can pick up daggers and use them, whats stopping you. Daggers don't do anything special for assassin that it doesn't for anyone else, maybe it's because CS and it's skills actually work.

/notsigned